chris pearson
Michigan Canoe Nut
Who thinks that you should restore a canoe(ok mainly Old Towns because most of the build documents are around) to match the original specs. - wood trim type, color, etc.?
Taking a poll......
- Thread starter chris pearson
- Start date
I prefer canoes that are restored to match the original specifications but it is not a religious issue for me. The discussion at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=2869 covered this topic from a slightly different angle.
Benson
Benson
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
My opinion:
Unless there's some reason to restore the canoe to the exact specifications of a build record, the owner should be able to choose things such as color--- and even wood species. For instance, upgrading to AA or putting on a long deck seems fine, because that could have been done originally. But I wouldn't replace a beautiful old OT short deck with a later version.
My feeling is that it's best to stay within the canoe's era, if it's a restoration... or it isn't a restoration, it's a resurrection. It's been argued that "restoration" means getting the canoe back to what it originally was... but I like the "it's your canoe" philosophy, which indicates (to me) that restoration can mean taking the canoe back to what it could have been, if the original owner had a couple more bucks to invest or didn't like green.
Personally, I wouldn't replace an intact deck though... it's part of the charm of an old canoe... I imagine all the eyes that have looked at it, and the hands that gripped it, and I'd have to leave it there.
We know the wood trim species for many of the old canoes because the catalogs exist-- or examples of these canoes exist-- or we simply "know" that a particular builder wouldn't have had access to certain woods. So, I personally would stick with what would have been within the realm of possibility for my canoe.
I wouldn't put courting canoe colors on a Gerrish, and I'd try for a fancy paint job on a canoe by a Charles River builder.
I'd keep the sponsons on my sponson canoe because I have others to use that don't have sponsons. I'd keep the slat seat on my war-era Old Town because that's a cool historical thing... but I might change-out any metals that were corroding. I wouldn't criticize anyone for leaving off sponsons or replacing an Old Town's slat seat with an early '40s version... sponsons were a buyer's choice... and the slat seats weren't OTs preference, but a wartime concession.
If the canoe belonged to my family when I was a kid, I'd want it to look as I remembered it (ours was an Alumacraft, so no decisions there!).
If I had a Gerrish with one American chestnut seat, I'd try to find some American chestnut for the other seat. And the canoe might be painted green (just guessing there).
Kathy
Unless there's some reason to restore the canoe to the exact specifications of a build record, the owner should be able to choose things such as color--- and even wood species. For instance, upgrading to AA or putting on a long deck seems fine, because that could have been done originally. But I wouldn't replace a beautiful old OT short deck with a later version.
My feeling is that it's best to stay within the canoe's era, if it's a restoration... or it isn't a restoration, it's a resurrection. It's been argued that "restoration" means getting the canoe back to what it originally was... but I like the "it's your canoe" philosophy, which indicates (to me) that restoration can mean taking the canoe back to what it could have been, if the original owner had a couple more bucks to invest or didn't like green.
Personally, I wouldn't replace an intact deck though... it's part of the charm of an old canoe... I imagine all the eyes that have looked at it, and the hands that gripped it, and I'd have to leave it there.
We know the wood trim species for many of the old canoes because the catalogs exist-- or examples of these canoes exist-- or we simply "know" that a particular builder wouldn't have had access to certain woods. So, I personally would stick with what would have been within the realm of possibility for my canoe.
I wouldn't put courting canoe colors on a Gerrish, and I'd try for a fancy paint job on a canoe by a Charles River builder.
I'd keep the sponsons on my sponson canoe because I have others to use that don't have sponsons. I'd keep the slat seat on my war-era Old Town because that's a cool historical thing... but I might change-out any metals that were corroding. I wouldn't criticize anyone for leaving off sponsons or replacing an Old Town's slat seat with an early '40s version... sponsons were a buyer's choice... and the slat seats weren't OTs preference, but a wartime concession.
If the canoe belonged to my family when I was a kid, I'd want it to look as I remembered it (ours was an Alumacraft, so no decisions there!).
If I had a Gerrish with one American chestnut seat, I'd try to find some American chestnut for the other seat. And the canoe might be painted green (just guessing there).
Kathy
MGC
Scrapmaker
Hi Chris,
I guess I wrung out my thoughts about this a few years ago. I lean towards restoration, not reconstruction.
If you want to re-construct, why not build to your spec from an old design. Look at this months calendar photo's as an illustration of my point.
I would be in tears to see an original boat rebuilt with these exotic woods but can anyone argue that those are gorgeous wooden canoes? Can anyone be critical of the builder or the owner for assembling a canoe to suit their taste and needs. Hardly. But suppose that those changes had been made to a rare and old boat, would that be tolerable? I don't think so.
Paint is decoration and not permanent so paint color and design is a "so what" as far as I am concerned. It's easy to change and "restore".
Wood, modifications to original design...not so cool, except for canoes that are common or not particularly well built or interesting.
At the risk of offending folks that are proud of canoes that I would never own, let's say that it's not cool to modify from standard canoes that are built by Gerrish, Rushton, Morris, old Whites, Peterboroughs etc.
I'd go one step further and suggest that canoes from pre-1920 that survive in original condition should be exempt from excessive modifications..
All of that said, bookshelves are not a fate that any wooden canoe deserves...
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
Would anyone replace the steel nails that Morris used to hold the inwales on with more steel nails? Or fasten the ribs to the inwales with steel tacks if silica bronze ring nails were at hand. I'm messin with a Morris at this time and it won't have any steel in it when done, authentic or not.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
P.s.
Thinking more about this, I'm less inclined to believe in changes when it comes to canoes where the original records don't exist. The statistics regarding Old Town canoes won't change if someone substitutes a different wood, but putting fancy outwales on a Morris that didn't have them originally would change our perception of what was produced. And if a person is patient, a Morris with fancy outwales will eventually show up for sale.
One comes from a different direction when restoring a canoe without a build record. Part of the fun is in the research and archeology needed to figure out what might have been there, originally. The owner of such a canoe may be more inclined to want to restore it as much as possible to original, because of the work that went into discovery.
Perhaps part of the fun of having the build record is being able to say, "it was originally dark green, but we decided to go with red."
Thinking more about this, I'm less inclined to believe in changes when it comes to canoes where the original records don't exist. The statistics regarding Old Town canoes won't change if someone substitutes a different wood, but putting fancy outwales on a Morris that didn't have them originally would change our perception of what was produced. And if a person is patient, a Morris with fancy outwales will eventually show up for sale.
One comes from a different direction when restoring a canoe without a build record. Part of the fun is in the research and archeology needed to figure out what might have been there, originally. The owner of such a canoe may be more inclined to want to restore it as much as possible to original, because of the work that went into discovery.
Perhaps part of the fun of having the build record is being able to say, "it was originally dark green, but we decided to go with red."
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Hi Fred--- Would be interesting to know if it was common for Morris to use steel in his open gunwale canoes... now I have one more thing to ask Morris-owners. I hope someone who knows will jump in here.
Seems to me that it's "traditional" to replace something that was a bad decision on the part of a builder with something that is less likely to compromise integrity of the boat... such as using fasteners that are less likely to corrode.
Or maybe we're onto a fascinating story here--- Bert was so enamored of his closed gunwale system that he sabotaged his own open wales...
Kathy
Seems to me that it's "traditional" to replace something that was a bad decision on the part of a builder with something that is less likely to compromise integrity of the boat... such as using fasteners that are less likely to corrode.
Or maybe we're onto a fascinating story here--- Bert was so enamored of his closed gunwale system that he sabotaged his own open wales...
Kathy
OP
OP
chris pearson
Michigan Canoe Nut
I'm torn. My 50 Pounder is AA grade and was originally ordered OT paint scheme #45, rub rail, yale blue below it and white above with the 1/2" pin stripe and oak leaves at the ends. This is going to be a user boat so was thinking about green. I'm torn though because I feel guilty not restoring it back to what the build sheet says.....
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MGC
Scrapmaker
The IG I am working on will have ring nails in place of the steel nails that held the ribs to the inside rail, on the ribs I am replacing....
For your Morris, will you rivet the stem bands? You could easily use screws, but the rivets are sort a Morris signature mark. It's that sort of thing that's at issue.
Chris, paint er up any color you chose...it's a user..you can (and will) paint it again. Besides, Yale Blue and White...not so sure that canoe wouldn't look better in green.
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
Yep, that's what we did to our Indian Girl. About the stem bands.----- I haden't thought about that. In fact, you just brought something up that I didn't know. But I don't want to hijack this thread
I'm torn. My 50 Pounder is AA grade and was originally ordered OT paint scheme #45, rub rail, yale blue below it and white above with the 1/2" pin stripe and oak leaves at the ends. This is going to be a user boat so was thinking about green. I'm torn though because I feal guilty not restoring it back to what the build sheet says.....
I agree with the consensus here. Paint it green and store the rub rails. You can easily repaint it and put the rub rails back on if you change your mind later. (I would never encourage anyone to put steel nails in a canoe even if it did have them originally.)
Benson
Steel nails ??
I have canoes that were used hard prior to my restoring them, and they were 80-100+ years old. In most cases the original nails were still holding and not requiring replacement. Where steel screws were used, eg., into the deck sides, it was sometimes the case that they were sufficiently corroded as to require replacement. I had no problem with using steel again to maintain the originality of the boat. My boats will never be used as these were and I dare say, their fasteners will last 300 years. So, when the aliens inspect them they will know how we did it back then, no ? ( wow, that stripping went great ! )
I have used bronze ring nails in rib tips and realized early on that it was not really necessary to do so, especially when one must remove them for whatever reason.
As for conforming to the original build record......as I understand it, most of the builders would pretty much do what ever you wanted to get their boat to you. So I should think, their catalog or historical evidence would be the proper guide during restoration.
I have canoes that were used hard prior to my restoring them, and they were 80-100+ years old. In most cases the original nails were still holding and not requiring replacement. Where steel screws were used, eg., into the deck sides, it was sometimes the case that they were sufficiently corroded as to require replacement. I had no problem with using steel again to maintain the originality of the boat. My boats will never be used as these were and I dare say, their fasteners will last 300 years. So, when the aliens inspect them they will know how we did it back then, no ? ( wow, that stripping went great ! )
I have used bronze ring nails in rib tips and realized early on that it was not really necessary to do so, especially when one must remove them for whatever reason.
As for conforming to the original build record......as I understand it, most of the builders would pretty much do what ever you wanted to get their boat to you. So I should think, their catalog or historical evidence would be the proper guide during restoration.
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
Chris –
I expect that with your remarkable craftsmanship and standards, your AA grade canoe, even as a “user boat,” is going to end up looking better than most original factory-quality OT canoes, and better than most restorations – no matter the color you paint it. And if you bring it to the Assembly this year, I (and surely others) are going to be studying it to see how to do a great restoration job, rather than criticizing any non-conformity with the build record. I certainly heard no negative comments (quite the contrary!) on the paint job you put on “Elizabeth,” the restored White you brought to Assembly, which I suspect does not replicate the original paint. You shouldn’t feel guilty about not replicating the build record paint, but should enjoy your own good taste and craftsmanship.
My own 1931 OT 50 pounder, CS grade, was originally “d. red” according to the build record, but was yellow when I bought it. As can be seen from my avatar above (and as you undoubtedly remember from last summer’s Assembly), I have done some experimenting with painting -- largely because I plan to replace the canvas in a couple of years (along with some ribs and planking) and my experiments will not be permanent. You may remember Ken Kelly warning me not to bring this canoe back to the Assembly again painted this way -- and my response was that of the Roman orator Cicero -- de gustibus non disputandum est (loose translation -- “ain’t no accountin’ for taste”). But this winter, I will probably change it a bit -- just to experiment. Ken may still not like it. I haven’t made any decision about what it will look like when I put a new canvas on, but it is not likely to be the “original” dark red. And I may play around again a bit after a couple of years. Right now I am in the process of adding home-made carry thwarts and a portage yoke (I will save the original center thwart) to make the canoe easier for me to use. I have refinished the seats already, recaning them by hand, and I will certainly match original woods when I repair the gunwales. however, I am likely to add rudder fittings and a mast step, because I want to try sailing a canoe, and I may recover it with dacron, rather than canvas -- in the spirit of the 50 pounder design -- to ease the load on my back. And it will be painted to please my eyes (and hopefully, the eyes of many who will see it).
Hope to see you this summer.
Greg
I expect that with your remarkable craftsmanship and standards, your AA grade canoe, even as a “user boat,” is going to end up looking better than most original factory-quality OT canoes, and better than most restorations – no matter the color you paint it. And if you bring it to the Assembly this year, I (and surely others) are going to be studying it to see how to do a great restoration job, rather than criticizing any non-conformity with the build record. I certainly heard no negative comments (quite the contrary!) on the paint job you put on “Elizabeth,” the restored White you brought to Assembly, which I suspect does not replicate the original paint. You shouldn’t feel guilty about not replicating the build record paint, but should enjoy your own good taste and craftsmanship.
My own 1931 OT 50 pounder, CS grade, was originally “d. red” according to the build record, but was yellow when I bought it. As can be seen from my avatar above (and as you undoubtedly remember from last summer’s Assembly), I have done some experimenting with painting -- largely because I plan to replace the canvas in a couple of years (along with some ribs and planking) and my experiments will not be permanent. You may remember Ken Kelly warning me not to bring this canoe back to the Assembly again painted this way -- and my response was that of the Roman orator Cicero -- de gustibus non disputandum est (loose translation -- “ain’t no accountin’ for taste”). But this winter, I will probably change it a bit -- just to experiment. Ken may still not like it. I haven’t made any decision about what it will look like when I put a new canvas on, but it is not likely to be the “original” dark red. And I may play around again a bit after a couple of years. Right now I am in the process of adding home-made carry thwarts and a portage yoke (I will save the original center thwart) to make the canoe easier for me to use. I have refinished the seats already, recaning them by hand, and I will certainly match original woods when I repair the gunwales. however, I am likely to add rudder fittings and a mast step, because I want to try sailing a canoe, and I may recover it with dacron, rather than canvas -- in the spirit of the 50 pounder design -- to ease the load on my back. And it will be painted to please my eyes (and hopefully, the eyes of many who will see it).
Hope to see you this summer.
Greg
Gil Cramer
The wooden canoe Shop, Inc.
Chris, paint it design #45. Then you'll have a good excuse to buy another canoe to restore for your user.
Fred, If your Morris does not have outside stems, the white cedar stems are too weak to hold the stem band screws. That is why Morris riveted them on.
Fred, If your Morris does not have outside stems, the white cedar stems are too weak to hold the stem band screws. That is why Morris riveted them on.
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
So Gil.
Our Morris does have hard wood outside stems. Do we still use rivets to attach them? Fred
Our Morris does have hard wood outside stems. Do we still use rivets to attach them? Fred
Gil Cramer
The wooden canoe Shop, Inc.
The outside stems will hold stem band screw without any trouble. I don't recall if the outside stems were riveted on or not, but I think they were screwed into the cedar stems. If you check the cedar stems from the inside of the canoe you can see rivet holes if rivets were used.
OP
OP
chris pearson
Michigan Canoe Nut
Thanks Gil, your no help...........
fred capenos
Canoe Pilot
Gil,
Thanks for the in put. Fred
Thanks for the in put. Fred
Fred,
I'll bop out to the barn and refresh my memory but I recall the Belle Isle which has outside stems was riveted. Back in a few minutes!
Denis
I'll bop out to the barn and refresh my memory but I recall the Belle Isle which has outside stems was riveted. Back in a few minutes!
Denis
Fred,
Yes, one of our Veazies has an outside stem and it is riveted.
Denis
Yes, one of our Veazies has an outside stem and it is riveted.
Denis
