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Ribs are on the 16' Pal

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by greatlakes, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    I use Dolfinite for ends, keels, and stem bands but did not know about inwhale to deck joint use. Did Old Town or any other builders use it for the deck to inwhale contact?
     
  2. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    From what I can tell, at least in the early days the canoe makers didn't use bedding compound. I have yet to find it in deck-gunwale joints, under stem bands, etc., but then I haven't taken apart a huge number of original old canoes. I think canoes were not necessarily meant to last forever, so builders probably didn't worry too much about such things. And going without bedding compound doesn't lead to immediate toll of the canoe death bell. For a canoe that's going to get any kind of serious water use, adding bedding compound- a reversible process- can only be helpful.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Dolfinite it is...

    Per above discussion, I decided to use Dolfinite Bedding Compound for the deck-to-inwale joints and for the stem band installation. BTW, West Marine had the lowest prices I was able to find: $21.99/pint; 28.79/qt.

    Thank you for your input.

    Frank
     
  4. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    wouldn't ya know.

    I went to the flint West marine to get some dolfinite after i ran out. they had no clue whatsoever what the stuff was. Go figure. i got it online instead.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Had it shipped from their supplier

    Dave,
    I called the Troy and St. Clair Shores WM stores. Troy was out and the SCS store had it shipped to me up North from their supplier. It took a couple of days only. The prices held -- of course, plus shipping.

    Frank
     
  6. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Progress Report -- '06 Wrap Up

    Well, I'm about to close shop for the year and head south.

    Below is the 16' Pal as it stands. The planking is complete, cherry decks are installed, and hammer blossoms gone. Next year will see the hull sanding, canvas stretching, and finishing. Outwales are ready to go. While canvas cures I'll build the thwarts and seats. It's going to be a fun summer next year when I launch this masterpiece! :D

    Thank you all for your great comments, suggestions, and well wishes!!

    Frank

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Scot T

    Scot T LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Lookin' beautiful Frank! Seeing the photo gets me itching to get to working on building my Pal. The walls for my new shop just went up today so it'll be a while yet. Have a good winter down south and I'm looking forward to seeing your photos of the launch next summer.
     
  8. Andy Hutyera

    Andy Hutyera The Red Canoe Guy

    Nice work! I'd have a hard time interupting the job, but cold weather does make it a bit tough. Incidentally, I would put the thwarts in before I canvas since the stesses of pulling the canvas tight might tend to distort the hull shape. Just my two cents worth to be taken with a grain of salt.
     
  9. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Headed Back to the Shop

    Well, after a too-long absence from the north, I'm headed back to the Michigan shop to continue this project.

    The hull is ready for sanding, canvassing, etc. While the filler dries I plan to build the seats and thwarts. I will make some temporary thwart-like spacers to help keep the shape of the hull while stretching the canvas, however.

    A couple of questions:

    What would be a good source for the cane, spline, and related cane seat materials? I plan to use pre-woven cane material.

    Any suggestions as to spline size and what size groove to be routed in the frame.

    This will be my first attempt at making cane seats and will make them out of cherry with cherry dowel hanger spacers.

    Thank you in advance for your suggestions.
     
  10. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    Personally, I find that hand caning (meaning the weaving of individual strands) far more satisfying that using cane pressed into a routed groove and secured with a spline:

    - hand caning looks much nicer (IMHO),
    - it is traditional (early tradition, at least),
    - it can be repaired without re-caning the entire seat, and
    - depending upon glue used with a spline, splined pre-woven cane can be difficult to replace if (really when) necessary.

    I've done both kinds of caning many times, and have repaired both many times. While hand-caning takes more time, it doesn't take forever and it is very satisfying. Hand caning is easy to learn, and you can create non-standard patterns that are very beautiful and cannot be had in pre-woven cane. For an outstanding example, see the work by Jean Bratton in the December, 2006 issue of Wooden Canoe.

    Caning supplies and books/pamphlets can be had from many sources including H.H. Perkins Co. and Frank's Cane and Rush Supply (both online along with many others). Companies like these sell both pre-woven cane and spline, and materials for hand caning. They also have charts that display hole sizes and spacing, along with standard cane sizes for each hole size/spacing.

    Note- these companies also sell lots of supporting supplies and tools, none of which are really necessary. Pegs are cheap, but mine- whittled from pecan and oak branches- were free, took minutes to make, and have lasted many years. The so-called "caning tool" seems like an utter waste of money- you can easily keep cane straight and neat without one.

    Try true hand-caning... you will likely be pleased. Then start a side business caning all those chairs that people will pay hundreds of dollars each to have re-caned!
     
  11. Scot T

    Scot T LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Welcome back to the North Frank, it's good to see you are going to get back at it. As I hinted last fall, I'm planning to do a Pal and I'm following your progress closely.

    I'm with Michael on the caning. Hand caning is easy and (I find) very relaxing. I've done quite a few canoe seats and my share of old chairs and I still get a thrill watching the pattern take shape. Kind of like Tibetan Monks making sand Mandalas except that it's not colored sand, not as intricate, you don't have to be a Monk and the wind doesn't blow it away moments after you have finished (we hope!). But other than that it's exactly the same. Well, maybe not...

    Michael covered the better supply outlets. I like Franks the best but I'm sure they are all fine. As far as pegs go I am too cheap to buy them from the suppliers and too lazy to whittle my own so I just went to my local Golf Pro shop and bought a few dozen golf tees. I think they were 50 or 75 cents for a bag of a dozen. Get the longer ones as they are easier to work with. Strangely enough the natural wood colored ones seem to be stronger than the painted ones. I'm not sure why?? You might break a couple as the wood they are made from isn't as strong as Pecan or Oak and you will miss all the fun of whittling your own but as an alternative they work great and don't cost much.

    Michaels correct about the side business too! I cannot believe how many times people have asked if I made my own canoe seats. I confess that I did which invaribly leads to..."Say, I have this old chair that I really like....".

    Give it a shot, you'll be glad you did.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Thank you , Michael and Scott for your seat suggestions. I will try the traditional hand weaving method as suggested.

    I just canvassed the hull and it went easier than I had anticipated. It looks like every step of the process ends up surprisingly easier than expected. It has been a very rewarding experience to date.

    Here is how this project looks with the canvas on:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Pal is Finished!

    Well,

    After a fairly busy summer -- albeit lots of fun -- my canoe is finished.

    Thank you all for the comments and advice. It's been a great ride. Number two is already started. I learned a lot from the first one.

    Will report on the maiden voyaye.

    All the best.

    Frank

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Scot T

    Scot T LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Awesome Frank!! Very beautiful boat. And those seats look absolutely professional. Not so hard is it?

    Thanks for posting photos of the finished canoe.
     
  15. Andy Hutyera

    Andy Hutyera The Red Canoe Guy

    Can't wait to hear the report on the maiden voyage. I just started two more myself - planning on doing one in Dacron.

    Beautiful job!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2007
  16. Douglas Ingram

    Douglas Ingram Red River Canoe & Paddle

    The result looks pretty good!

    I still think that that shop is pretty awesome, you should see what mine looks like...

    If you're going to work on a Chestnut design, you might consider using the seat weaving pattern that Chestnut used. Just a detail, I know, but details add up.

    Can I ask why you put the forward thwart ahead of the bow seat? Its usually just behind it.
     
  17. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Thank you, all, for the kind words.

    Scott,
    Yes, this hand caning thing can get in your blood. I was surprised to see how easy and fun something like that can be. I made four seats fairly quick.
    Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

    Andy,
    The craft is going to hit the water next week at our lake here. In a few days it will smell of fish and have some dog scratches in it. That's what I built it for. I'll use it, but won't abuse it. Report is forthcoming.

    Douglas,
    I lost a few nights' sleep over the placement of the seats and thwarts. At the end, I did a few calculations for moment arm of the seat placements with assumed passenger weights and decided where to place them. Time on the water will make final determination.

    As to the placement of the "quarter" thwart I had to take poetic license and deviate from tradition for my comfort. Unfortunately this forum was shut down during that time and I could not ask. I will be fishing out of the canoe mostly by myself. Since I will be sitting "backwards" on the "bow" seat, I did not want to have a thwart under my calf. Most canoes have that thwart at the quarter position very close to the "back" of the front seat for normal two-person paddling. I still can't figure out why it is there -- and usually the seat is mounted lower to keep the CG closer to the water -- when it is an obstruction when paddling solo. I don't usually paddle in the "Canadian" or kneeling position, so I use the seat.

    If someone can enlighten me on my thwart position comment, please do. I started building a second one already and can use some expertise in that respect. Thank you.

    As I test the new canoe on the water I may have to fine tune seat position depending on its attitude when loaded. I hope it will not come to that, though.

    Frank
     
  18. Andy Hutyera

    Andy Hutyera The Red Canoe Guy

    Frank,

    Out of curiousity I compared your seat/thwart placement with what I came up with. The seat positions are within one inch of what I used and the rear thwart is in exactly the same place. I don't think you need the front quarter thwart. It will certainly keep the canoe perfectly symetrical, but I have found that the distortion that occurs by not having it there is very slight. It's absence gives your bowman a more comfortable arrangement and achieves your purpose of allowing you to sit in the bow when you solo. If you check Alex's website I think you'll find that he does not use a front quarter thwart.

    Happy paddling!
     
  19. Douglas Ingram

    Douglas Ingram Red River Canoe & Paddle

    Mounting the seat on a riser, instead of hanging it from the gunnels, will enable it to function simultaneously as a thwart.
     
  20. OP
    OP
    greatlakes

    greatlakes LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Thanks, Andy. I saw where Alex's Pal does not have the quarter thwart in question. I'll see how this one goes and I can always take it off and plug the gunwale holes with a brass plug.

    Douglas,

    Can you elaborate on mounting the seat on a "riser" instead of hanging it? I cannot visualize what you mean by that. Thanks.

    Frank
     

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