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Pal or Fort?

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by fjalt, Oct 5, 2009.

  1. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Interesting thread especially debate over show keel or no shoe keel....as I just got a Minetta and have debated whether to keep shoe keel or not....think I'm leaning towards leaving off....intend to use primarily for Canadian style paddling....perhaps eventually for canoe ballet....as I don't intend to do major restoration until next year, I'll keep as is for now....and I'll decide for sure after using next year...but I suspect Dan Miller is very correct on a difference....from my past experience any way
     
  2. pklonowski

    pklonowski Unrepentant Canoeist

    I suppose if you leave it off, and decide to add it back on later, that's easier to deal with than the other way around?
     
  3. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Seems that there might be some concern over leaving off if you think you might want to put back on....at least shoe keels apparently can distort if just left off
     
  4. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    The propensity for a piece of wood to move is dependent more on the nature of the piece, the conditions under which it was removed, the conditions under which it is stored and so on. More so than on whether it is a shoe keel, regular keel or gunwale. Frankly, if a bit of wood removed from a canoe wants to change shape that much, you didn't want it attached in the first place!
     
  5. woodenkayakguy

    woodenkayakguy LOVES Wooden Canoes

    one thing nobody's questioned is,does it have outside stems,I think that would be a factor also
     
  6. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    It's a Chestnut... no need to ask :p:p:D
     
  7. woodenkayakguy

    woodenkayakguy LOVES Wooden Canoes

    ok,still learning.It came to mind because I am doing an ottonobee and this discussion has me thinking about not putting the keel back on,would like to do more freestyle type paddling in it ,but out here I should probably leave it on for river paddling
     
  8. Scot T

    Scot T LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Canoe keels and rivers, or more correctly river rocks/boulders, have not been a good combination for me.

    In both the Bow River (near Banff) and the Elbow River (near Bragg Creek) (I used to live in Calgary) I have been dumped. In both cases the keel hooked on a boulder, the canoe spun sideways and the entire contents of the canoe including me went for a swim. Granted that was a good twenty years ago I was just starting out as a canoe lover and I've learned a few lessons (I hope...sometimes not so sure) as I've aged but in both cases a keelless canoe would have slipped over the rock. On shallow rivers I don't like keels, I'd rather put another coat of paint on the canoe bottom when I get home than go for an unwanted swim.
     
  9. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Good point Dan....worth repeating as well....I think the previous quote I referred to must have been in reference to how keel was stored rather than all keels per se....thanks for pointing out my obvious error....
     
  10. OP
    OP
    fjalt

    fjalt Curious about Wooden Canoes

    keel or no keel

    I received an email from Rollin Thurlow and his advise was to leave it off. Thats what I'm going to do and if I ever regret my decision, I'll just put the keel back on or make a new one. thanks for all the input.
    Now, who has the best canvas filler? and why? Can a guy still get white lead filler?
     
  11. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

  12. Scot T

    Scot T LOVES Wooden Canoes

    fjalt, Rollin has an excellent filler as does a number of others on this site. I usually mix my own closely based on the first recipe in the link above. I think it's pretty good and I've not had a problem with it.

    As to white lead filler, I think it's better to not use lead. It's been linked to all sorts of nasty body and brain damage. Not to mention the environmental issues associated with it's use. I don't think it is a necessary ingredient in filler these days.

    Here is an interesting write-up on fillers. It might have been posted here before, I'm not sure. I found it helps to explain quite a few things http://www.guertin.com/canoe/fillers.html
     
  13. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    I just used Bill Clement's filler. Really like it. I have used Zinsser watertite and it's only advantage is quick cure time, found locally, and half the cost. You have to really work it in and not apply too thick. I've had it krinkle on me a couple times. The Clement filler is thin and soaks in well. Good stuff. I used Old Town filler before too. Thicker and you have to really rub it in.
     
  14. davelanthier

    davelanthier Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    Keel or no keel

    Here are a few pictures of a 16' Chestnut Pal factory original shoe keel. It was quite straight [though some what cupped] when I removed it 6 weeks ago. It was stored on a dry, flat surface. Can someone explain why it now looks like a snake? I will be repacing it with a new keel to protect the brittle ribs [especially those that already have keel screw holes in them] against any unfortunate misshaps.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. pklonowski

    pklonowski Unrepentant Canoeist

    I just checked in my rafters, and the original keel from my '46 Otca is still almost perfectly straight. It's been in my rafters for 3 or 4 years, and was in the previous owner's rafters (outdoors, under the roof of the carport; Chicago area, so cold, dry winters & hot, humid summers, with dramatic changes even within seasons) for more than two decades. Different pieces of wood react differently, and you can't always tell by looking at the grain whether a piece will warp or not.

    While your keel was secured to the canoe, the screws & other structures kept the warp in check. Once released, all the stresses in the wood started to push, pull, twist & turn...

    Changes in humidity helped it all proceed. The seal created by paint & bedding compound can be compromised. The keel has been through a lot of years when it was submerged and dried a lot of times. It probably didn't take much of an ambient humidity change in your rafters to initiate the warping process.

    I'd be curious to know if anyone out there thinks it might be worth steaming the keel, and then re-attaching it to the canoe, allowing it to dry in position before painting it? Or steaming it, then setting it up in a press, to try to get the bends out? It shouldn't be all that different than steaming gunnels.
     
  16. john hupfield

    john hupfield fire starter/wood burner

    I'd be curious to know if anyone out there thinks it might be worth steaming the keel, and then re-attaching it to the canoe, allowing it to dry in position before painting it? Or steaming it, then setting it up in a press, to try to get the bends out? It shouldn't be all that different than steaming gunnels.[/QUOTE]

    Steaming may actually work. Genarally i just make a new one.
    John
     
  17. OP
    OP
    fjalt

    fjalt Curious about Wooden Canoes

    fitting ribs

    I'm now at the point where I am bending and installing ribs. So, far have installed two ribs without breaking. However, at the turn of the bilge there is a small gap between the rib and the planking. Does the rib have to fit totally flush? or is a small gap acceptable. thanks for any info. Fred
     
  18. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    If I understand the question correctly, the rib should lay flat against all planking. pUsH DOWN on the top of the rib to fill out the space. The tacks should draw it up tight. You may have to move the end fore/aft to get it to lay right. You want the outdside to end up fair not lumpy. Not that there's anything wrong with lumpy, but most people prefer pretty fair.
     
  19. OP
    OP
    fjalt

    fjalt Curious about Wooden Canoes

    new ribs

    Ok, I started over and this time I used both hands and my knees to get the new ribs tight against the planking. Looks much better. Now I'm in the process of trying to match the color of the old ribs. So, far I've used golden oak and early american but I think I need some more redish color. I'll keep you posted.

    Does anyone know what happened to Eric at Harman canoes. I can't get any response from emails or phone calls.
     
  20. fred capenos

    fred capenos Canoe Pilot

    Eric Harman is alive and well

    I just received one pound of copper tacks from Eric this week.....be patient....good things come to those who wait....he's very busy.
     

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