Need basic gunwale/rails help for my 1911 HW old town

RHP

Curious about Wooden Canoes
Hey everyone, I'm ready to canvas and put replacement gunwales on my boat. It's an 18' CS model with 'closed spruce rails'. I'm completely unsure what the pieces and profiles are to cover the edge of the canvas. Attached is a closeup of the inwale and cedar siding, and a diagram of the 2 ways I think it *may* have originally been done??
Any and all suggestions welcome, I'm excited to get her back on the water!
 

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Boy, you're in for some fun...

I assume your canoe is an OldTown HW CS. If its from 1911 then you may have both top and side rails. If this is the case you should see a ton of nail holes along the top of the inner rails, and the planking will come to just below the inner rails. Also the bolts for the seats & thwarts will be 'L' shaped and held in the inner rails in slots. The top & side rails are thin - maybe 3/32" to 1/8" thick - and are nailed along the top of the inner rails and nailed or screwed along the sides of the inner rails. The canvas would be cut to be just below the tops of the inner rails. When complete they would look like this (1906 HW CW):
2018-07-05 11.41.14.jpg

On the other hand your canoe may have just outer rails. If this is the case you'd likely have diamond shaped heads for the seat & thwart bolts and you'd see this diamond shape impressed into the tops of the inner rails. You'll also see the planking end about 1/4" from the top of the inner rails - this forms a ledge where the outer rails would fit into. You would trim the canvas to the top of the planking. These canoes have just the outer rails which are typically screwed in place so their tops are flush with the tops of the inner rails. These outer rails are shaped with a rabbet cut to form a ledge that fits in the space between the top of the planking and the top of the inner rails. In profile these rails would look like this:
20200522_110945.jpg 20200608_070028.jpg 20200608_070045.jpg

In either case you'll likely need to steam bend the wood to get it to conform to the canoe's profile. I've made a form to do this:
20200522_111133.jpg
And remember that when you steam-bend wood you want to bend along the smallest thickness - otherwise it'll twist. So what I do is mill the wood to about 1" square, then bend, then shape the wood.

Fun fun fun. It just so happens that I finished making a pair of outer rails for an Old Town Otca. Here's some pix:
20200608_065944.jpg
 
I agree with Howie that your fun has just begun. My experience came with the restoration of a 1912 closed gunwale Old Town, and from your post, I assume that's what you have. I assume you found that the rib tips were tapered down to almost nothing, 1/8" where they were tacked to the inwales. Howie's photo shows a piece of outwale being held up against an open gunwale build. You will cut the L in your outwale just enough to fit over the top of the planking+canvas, and the gap remaining between inwale and outwale will be not much greater than 1/8". But you have a long way to go before this. First, stretch the canvas, then apply filler, then wait 4-6 weeks for the filler to harden, then sand smooth, then prime, then paint. Only when you reach this point is it time to put the outwales on. And they the gunwale cap goes on top. Both were attached with brass nails.
Tom McCloud
 
Well.... I'd wait on canvassing until the upper & outer rails are built. For the outer rails use some cardboard to trace the shape of the up-sweep curve from the tip of the deck & back about 3' and build a form (see my pic in my 1st post). You will likely need several attempts at making the form to get the wood to be the right shape. Remember - the curve needs to be 10% to 20% steeper to account for wood spring-back. I use a steamer used to remove wallpaper and feed the steam into a 4' plastic tube along with the tip area of one rail. Leave the wood in the form for a few days to allow it to accept its new shape, then see how well it matches the canoe's shape. Then repeat as needed - assuming you'll be making the rails in 10'+ sections. Fun, fun, fun !
 
RHP,

If you have a true closed gunwale canoe the rib tops will be tapered very thin at the top so that there is no gap between each of them along the top of the inwale. The planking will lay smooth along the top of the inwale and the thin rib tops. The canvas is installed in the normal manner and trimmed off just below the top of the planking. It does not wrap over the top of the inwale. The gunwale top caps and side caps are thin, 1/8” or so and chamfered (some of which can be done after they are installed). They can be a PIA to make because they are so long and thin. Make sure they are plenty long. Don’t ask me how I know that. Begin installing them at the center of the canoe and work toward each end. You will need to taper them at the ends so they are not as wide. If they are not tapered they look really weird. Start tapering about 18” from the ends. You may have to steam them in order to make the ‘S’ turn on the top and the upsweep on the side cap.


Good luck and have fun.
 

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You guys are all spot on. There ARE a ton of nail holes on the top of the inner gunwales. I just couldn't wrap my mind around actually needing outer and top pieces. I also appreciate the tip of doing 10' sections..I'm an optimist, so was hoping to make 'em full length!

Seriously, really appreciate all the replies. I think I have a good grasp of everything else, just couldn't figure out how closed rails worked on this beast.
 
You guys are all spot on. There ARE a ton of nail holes on the top of the inner gunwales. I just couldn't wrap my mind around actually needing outer and top pieces. I also appreciate the tip of doing 10' sections..I'm an optimist, so was hoping to make 'em full length!

YES, make them full length, but steam, bend and fit, each end, about 6-10 ft at a time.
 
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I’m working on a 17’ Carleton built in the Old Town factory in 1916. It had the original closed gunnels when I got it. It had been fiberglassed but the gunnels had not been removed. The first photo shows the gunnel configuration as I started to removed them prior to stripping the fiberglass. At this point, I’ve canvassed and coated the hull ready to begin priming and painting.

I’ve tried to save as much of the original as possible, so I’ve decided to keep the original gunnel caps, splicing a spruce section onto one that was in really bad shape. The outwhales were rough, so I cut replacements from spruce firing strips my lumber yard let me pick through. I steambent these on the canoe, clamping from the middle until the bends became too complex; then encasing the remaining two to three feet in plastic tubing, running in steam, and carefully bending against the hull and holding in place with strap clamps for several days.
 
Last edited:
I’m working on a 17’ Carleton built in the Old Town factory in 1916. It had the original closed gunnels when I got it. It had been fiberglassed but the gunnels had not been removed. The first photo shows the gunnel configuration as I started to removed them prior to stripping the fiberglass.

None of your images are accessible.
 
RHP,

If you have a true closed gunwale canoe the rib tops will be tapered very thin at the top so that there is no gap between each of them along the top of the inwale. The planking will lay smooth along the top of the inwale and the thin rib tops. The canvas is installed in the normal manner and trimmed off just below the top of the planking. It does not wrap over the top of the inwale. The gunwale top caps and side caps are thin, 1/8” or so and chamfered (some of which can be done after they are installed). They can be a PIA to make because they are so long and thin. Make sure they are plenty long. Don’t ask me how I know that. Begin installing them at the center of the canoe and work toward each end. You will need to taper them at the ends so they are not as wide. If they are not tapered they look really weird. Start tapering about 18” from the ends. You may have to steam them in order to make the ‘S’ turn on the top and the upsweep on the side cap.


Good luck and have fun.

This looks *exactly* like my boat. Thanks for the sketch too. It looks like on the pics named gunwale that the rails are higher than the deck? This was confusing to me too, and made me seriously second guess the need for top rails. I ASSumed the decks and rails were flush, but the deck was definitely reinstalled at the same height it was originally at.
 
RHP - The photos of your canoe (inthe attachment in your original post) definitely show a closed gunwale canoe. Your gunwales (rails) are in place as they should be, and so are the decks. All you're missing are the gunwale caps - one on top and one outside. I call them caps as opposed to gunwales because they are much less substantial than the actual gunwale or the outwales on most open gunwale canoes. They serve to cap the rail and canvas, providing a neat, robust edge that cover and protect the rails, planking and canvas.

Jim Clearwater's diagram is excellent, and his photos should be helpful. The only thing I would add is that not all makers, at least not in all years, cnamfered the edges quite so much or so crisply. Some did, others had chamfers that left a bit of a flat on each edge, and others appeared to have little or no chamfer and maybe just a little roundover. But those are fine details that you may or may not be concerned with depending on just how historically accurate you want to be, vs. simply having a nice, functional canoe.

Here are some posts that should provide more information incluing some dimensions:

http://wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/gunwale-caps-on-1912-ot.16231/#post-82218
http://www.wcha.org/forums/index.php?threads/old-town-circa-1940.3815/#post-19434

Hope this helps,
Michael
 
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