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Langford painted vinyl problem

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by geologicool, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Jim C., I didn't say you used the word 'primitive'....however the implication was more than present in your choice of words....especially in your comment: Don't forget when Europeans arrived Native Americans were basicly stone age people with no written language, no metalurgy and no domestic animals other than a dog. They had not even invented the wheel yet. Maybe if they had thought of the idea they would have used them. Native Americans are credited with inventing the canoe but it took European Americans to get the idea out of the woods.....

    First of all, you did use the phrase 'Stone Age'....just because Native North Americans used stone tools doesn't really mean that they were "Stone Age" (check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age)....how do you know they didn't have a written language???? If you check you will find that there were several types of written records kept....including bark scrolls....not just a rich oral tradition. There was a very developed spiritual belief system in many of the First Nations. And great technological advances including building mounds, pueblos, and pyramids. And so many other types of shelter. Many types of medicinal plants and treatments were used. Even forms of metalurgy....there was a trade in copper and even types of metal jewellery were developed, including gold, certainly in the Central and Southern American areas....but also examples found in parts of North America (so that takes away the idea of 'stone age' or 'no metal'). Pottery and other utensils were used. There was an organized series of trade routes, trade in all sorts of goods....from coast to coast. There was even organized government....clan systems....etc. Many had become farmers developing food such as the potato....the tomato....squash....beans....corn....even tobacco. Before the coming of the Europeans. Hardly 'stone age' in my way of thinking.

    And of course Native Americans developed the snowshoe....the toboggan....and the canoe....before the coming of Europeans....who merely borrowed such technology when they found that their own means of technology re: travel wasn't suitable to travel in North America....they needed to use the Native American technology already here in the canoe, the snowshoe etc....and I would definitely argue that Europeans who came here developed the canoe as we now know it....just because they may have added seats....or even keels....the shape and form of the canoe stems from the original designs of the First Nations....I think if one looks very closely it would be hard to say that the Europeans did much to 'improve' on the canoe....true they brought some different building techniques....but even to this day, little has really changed in the shape and form of the canoe....to paraphrase the comment: Native Americans are credited with inventing the canoe but it took European Americans to get the idea out of the woods, if it wasn't for the Natives, the Europeans wouldn't have got into the woods in the first place....

    Sorry if this has gotten way off topic from keels on canoes or even painting old Verolite canoes....and I don't mean to get into a major argument online....just adding to the discussion and hopefully correcting some points made....again no offense towards anyone intended
     
  2. jwil

    jwil Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    as a new subscriber to the group I am impressed with the passion which everyone shares. I didn't set out to start the great debate but watching it unfold has been interesting to say the least. For now it seems when the venerable tremblay needs to be redone it will sport canvas, or should it be dacron??? sic

    "an inner process stands in need of outside criteria"
    LV Wittengstein Blue Book
     
  3. JClearwater

    JClearwater Wooden Canoe Maniac

    No offense taken … a lively discussion is all good. We will take this no further – I seem to remember a ‘Valentine thread’ a couple years ago that went way beyond the pale and this one will stop here.

    I have no time anyway – I have to get ready for Irene.

    Memo to self: Buy beer and ice.

    Jim C.
     
  4. Andre Cloutier

    Andre Cloutier Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.

    Macky, dont know if I'd mess about with lead in the quest to fill canvas, there's other ways to go about it. Treat the canvas with preservative and be safe and cover up while applying it, but with subsequent mixing, applying and sanding I think I'd go unleaded. Just my 2 cents, but there's enough VOCs and other stuff to make you sick without adding lead to the mix. With the comparatively light use canoes get through recreation these days, and being coveted and stored dry I doubt you will miss the preservative qualities of white lead over the next 30 or 40 years of light use. Most here are mad as hatters anyways without the extra boost. I know, that's mercury vapour, but i dont have a phrase to reference the Franklin expedition.
    I rather enjoy historical revisionism on occasion, but Jim is wise to let it die. I'm confused, should i put a keel on or not?;)
     
  5. Greg Nolan

    Greg Nolan enthusiast

    Dacron's chief advantage is that it is lighter in weight -- I'm told about 5 pounds or so lighter than canvas. It may tear more easily, and being thinner, it can show imperfections in the hull more readily. Canvas is probably somewhat easier to put on, is traditional, and is quite durable. I have been told that abrasion scuffs on the sort of aircraft dope used to paint dacron can be difficult to touch up; the paints used over canvas filler are usually touched up without problem. The filler usually used on canvas can take several weeks to cure, before painting; there is no comparable waiting time when finishing dacron. As will all things "canoe," there are trade-offs and compromises. Most people continue to use canvas. Once again, a matter of preference.
     
  6. peter osberg

    peter osberg LOVES Wooden Canoes

    With respect to re-covering there are different weights of dacron and different weights of canvas. My 80lb 18 foot canvas covered chestnut (the canvas had terminally deteriorated), was recovered with dacron and weighted in at 49lbs, and is still the same 25 years later. The aircraft paints are softer and do scratch more easily and are less abrasion resistant, but if abrasion is your concern, use epoxy with grafite as a filler (then a hard surface paint) and a heavier fabric. Your covering will still be lighter and more durable, as well as a lot easier and faster to apply than canvas. Although less traditional than canvas, which is less traditional than birch-bark.
     
  7. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

  8. peter osberg

    peter osberg LOVES Wooden Canoes

    The blog on coverings is fine if it was accurate. The properties of various fabrics is well researched, and cotton degrades the fastest with time, moisture, and UV, polyester (dacron) degrades with UV but much less quickly than nylon or cotton, and does not degrade with time and moisture the way canvas (cotton) does. The verolite coating did not do as well with UV as expected and faded more quickly than paint if stored out in the sun. I stored mine under cover and it has held up well, having well over 10,000 miles under its bottom and 38 years old.
     
  9. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Peter, you have been very fortunate with your verolite covered canoe....much more so than I believe is usual....you obviously have stored your canoe well....and you have taken great care of it....but verolite is not known for its longevity....certainly not in lasting as far as the covering itself goes....it is known to be easily worn off...or losing its bond altogether to the canvas....it does not allow for easy repainting....and doesn't breath like regular painted canvas does....and water can be trapped between the wood and verolite covering....which can cause rot....

    So I'm not sure what you found inaccurate in Mike Elliott's blog post....as you said it was well researched....JMHO....not looking at stirring up any pot....
     
  10. kayamedic

    kayamedic Kim Gass

    Dacron is not resistant to being repainted when scuffed though this is no doubt a property of the filler used. I had the unfortunate moment of idiocy and failed to tie my LoonWorks boat on the trailer. I made a U turn in front of Church Pond at the fire hall and the boat bounced once on the double yellow line on Rt 86 and then did a double barrel roll and landed on the shoulder then the ditch.

    Marine enamel was used (Pettit I think was on that boat) . Lately we sanded down the hull and went to Krylon flat paint in the spray can. Flat paint hides imperfections better but there are hardly any of those on a Tom Mac boat.

    What I am most pleased with another dacron boat is that after 16 years the paint is not checkering at all.
     
  11. Todd Bradshaw

    Todd Bradshaw Sailmaker

    You need to be very careful when you start applying terms like "breathable" to filled and painted canvas. "Breathability" denotes a fabric or laminate that can, and does, allow moisture to pass through it (usually driven by atmospheric pressure or heat). If you think a noticable (or possibly even measurable) amount of moisture is going to freely pass through two or three coats of filler and multiple layers of enamel on any sort of short-term basis, you're dreaming.

    What is far more likely to be happening when your canoe canvas gets soaked and eventually dries out is moisture wicking on the inside of the canvas, and cotton is excellent at wicking moisture. The moisture is going to take the easiest way out, so rather than trying to pass through the filler and paint, or soak into the naturally water-repellent cedar, it heads for the nearest exit - which is most likely going to be the gaps between the planks. Those cotton fibers on the inside surface of the canvas that weren't completely saturated when the filler went on are the pathway for this to happen.

    We can also take a hint from dogs on this...... Dogs' coats dry from the outside-in. As the outside of their coat air-dries, it pulls moisture from the inner parts which replaces it, and you get a cycle going on where the moisture is slowly sucked to the surface and evaporates until it's all been pulled out and evaporated. So moisture escaping through canoe planking gaps may have come from elsewhere, and be following the path of least resistance through untreated cotton fibers (which are hollow, by the way) to get to the gap. As it evaporates, it's likely sucking more moisture to follow the same pathway out (doggy-style). The end result is the same (wet canvas eventually dries out) but I think wicking to the inside is far more likely to be going on than and serious amount of breathability through filled and painted canvas.

    Polyester (Dacron) fibers can be treated to wick and transport moisture (Patagonia Capilene long underwear, for example) but I don't believe the types of polyesters that we would use on canoes or aircraft have any such treatment. The Dacron-covered canoe may not transfer moisture like the canvas-covered one, but survives because Dacron will only absorb a tiny amount of moisture (like a couple percent of its weight) so there is far less trapped next to the planking than cotton canvas might hold.
     
  12. peter osberg

    peter osberg LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Most routines for covering have their adherants, and I have come to appreciate verolite, even though it needs protection from the sun. Meticulous care cannot unfortunately be credited, On my trembley, I have replaced keel, outwales, both ends of both inwales, each deck, both stems, planking bits and pieces and some rib ends. The covering however has survived me and our kids(4).. so far, and it is (my mistake... 39 years).
     
  13. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Todd, I couldn't agree more....and the 'breathability' I referred to was from Mike Elliott's blog, specifically: Regular painted canvas breathes and allows water to evaporate quickly – if the canoe is stored correctly.....however, in the context of my previous post here, I probably used 'breathability' in a misleading form of terminology....especially since the point is for a watertight hull....whatever the covering....perhaps Mike who frequents the WCHA forum is better to comment further....all I can add is that when one thinks of a cedar rib and plank canoe covered in fiberglas vs. one covered in canvas....isn't the fiberglas clad canoe more likely to suffer from rot as the wood is not able to 'breathe' (or perhaps 'wick' as Todd pointed out)????....and the one with canvas will not likely have the same rot since the canvas (even filled and painted) is a more 'natural' fabric????....from what I took as Mike's point in his article regarding this, that would be my understanding....

    Peter, I am impressed with your comment of a 39 year old verolite covering....it has lasted far longer than any I'm aware of....and if you have no signs of rot....and really haven't 'babied' your Tremblay, you've done really well indeed....

    However, despite what Peter states, personally I can't see verolite as very good covering....from my experience, it doesn't last as long as a regular painted canvas surface....is likely to either 'delaminate' or scrape off....it is not easily repainted if it does....simple canvas, filled then painted, just makes for a better covering....it might be more labour intensive....and time consuming....but I think it makes for a better job in the long run....

    The use of dacron is a different matter....and I am seriously considering using it on a solo canoe I hope to construct next year....for lightness if nothing else....
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2011
  14. kayamedic

    kayamedic Kim Gass

    Interestingly at this years Assembly we had a fellow with a wood canvas painted canoe whose canoe developed a huge bulge in the side. He had gotten it wet and turned it turtle overnight as most of us are wont to do.

    But in the morning the sun heated it up and what seems to have happened is that evaporating steam does not want to go down. It goes up and actuallly the skin separated from the planking.

    I have been told even with my Dacron canoes to never let the sun hit them upside down if there is moisture on the inside. Prompt turning it over open side up in the morning lets the moisture escape.
     
  15. Todd Bradshaw

    Todd Bradshaw Sailmaker

    Not really. If it's properly done with epoxy resin, you are limiting the amount of area that can absorb water. You won't find any substance that will seal or stick to cedar any better than epoxy resin, so with a glass/epoxy covering, the surfaces that are covered are essentially taken out of the equation. The trick then becomes one of carefully maintaining the surfaces which are just varnished, because it's not as good of a moisture barrier as the epoxy is, and replacing deteriorated wood on a fiberglassed hull is a nightmare compared to fixing broken planks or ribs on a stripped canvas-covered hull.

    Just don't get too hung-up on the whole breathability thing for varnished or painted wood. Though evaporating solvents in these products do leave it more porous than something like epoxy which is 100% solids, varnished wood doesn't really breathe much at all. The function of varnish is to keep moisture out of wood, not to let it in and let it out on a regular basis. If water does get in, it's usually through deteriorated varnish, or spots that were missed - and it doesn't wait patiently to breathe out through the finish. Instead, it deteriorates and discolors the wood and then bubbles or otherwise lifts the varnish, requiring stripping, clean-up and refinishing to fix the problem. I don't think most water cares whether it's deteriorating a natural material or one that's some sort of man-made substance. If it gets in there, it's eventually going to do some damage.
     
  16. WoodNCanvas

    WoodNCanvas LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Todd, once again I stand to be corrected....good points you make....let me rephrase my initial point then....without talking about 'breathability' or even 'breathing'....I think the fact that fiberglas resin can seal or even stick to cedar better than most other substances....and literally take such covered surfaces 'out of the equation'....and that one must maintain the varnished surfaces because varnish is not as good a barrier to moisture as epoxy is....doesn't the fact that painted (or varnished) surfaces are more porous (however slightly) than something like epoxy (which is 100% solid) mean that there is at least some way for at least moisture trapped in a cedar canvas canoe to escape at least through 'evaporation'????....because of the way wood canvas canoes (or any form of rib and pank canoe with whatever covering) are built, is there not a number of access points for water to find its way between the wood hull and the outer covering???? Sand is often found trapped between the wood and canvas....so why wouldn't moisture???? The less opportunity for that moisture to 'evaporate' would mean more potential for possible rot, wouldn't it???? And whether canvas is more 'natural' or not, really only comes into play in that it is possibly more inherent to being more porous than epoxy, wouldn't it????

    But whether there is any real amount of much to any discussion on how 'porous' a certain covering is or isn't, and even whether that contributes to moisture being trapped or not....and ultimately that leads to rot faster or doesn't shouldn't be the key point of debate. Such a discussion on epoxy vs. canvas. vs verolite or whatever covering really should boil down to the overall benefits of each specific covering....just limiting this to epoxy vs. canvas vs. verolite is pretty simple in my mind....epoxy is hard to have to replace on a wooden hull, due to its 'stickiness' of the epoxy resin to wood....as Todd noted, replacing deteriorated wood on a fiberglassed hull is a nightmare compared to fixing broken planks or ribs on a stripped canvas-covered hull....verolite is not as reliable as painted canvas....unless one is as fortunate as Peter was, it usually won't last....either wearing off (sometimes simply being scraped off if a very thin layer of vinyl)....'delamination' of vinyl from canvas....and also the problem of trying to repaint....regular canvas covered wood canoes can simply have the canvas replaced....no matter how time consuming or labour intensive that may be....recanvassing provides a brand new outer surface....that will protect the inner wood hull as long as the usual care and maintenance of the exposed wood work is done....with such care and maintenance a wood canvas canoe can last for generations....with many examples of canvas canoes over a 100 years old....finally using canvas allows for easier repairs to any wood work (damaged or broken ribs or planking, as well as any rotted areas), at least as far as comparing canvas to fibeglas....

    So of these three choices for covering a rib and plank wood canoe, that means that canvas would be the best choice....in my opinion at least (and my $0.02 is worth that....or even possibly less LOL LOL).
     
  17. peter osberg

    peter osberg LOVES Wooden Canoes

    I would not recommend having the epoxy (as paint or filler) put on in a way that it adhere to the wood, that would change flexibility /repairability etc.: but as a skin hardening surface coat, prior to painting (it also removes paint incompatibility issues from the fabric sealing coat) it works well. I did post a routine I (still) am faithful to, a few years ago, the fabric (dacron) has survived much abuse on 8 wood canoes, and the years are mounting up on those as well.
     
  18. Rob Stevens

    Rob Stevens Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

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