Installing Brass Stem Bands

[Miller]

Hi,

I finished canvassing a wooden canoe and am now ready to put on the brass stem bands. I did it once before and had problems with the brass not bending far enough (or maybe I needed 4 hands instead of 2) and also the predrilled stem had cracked where one of the holes were. My question is how do I force the brass over the stem without ripping out the little #4 screws as I go? I remember last time I would push the brass down to fit the stem and it would snap back up again somewhat after I let go because well, it isn't exactly in a vise and you sure can't hammer it down or clamp it in place. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

 

[Mark Adams]

Hi,

When I put on a new stem band, I start at the deck, and work my way down the stem. At a certain point, you'll have to flip the canoe over, and continue on. I do it one screw at a time. I constantly check the alignment as I go, making sure it will run up on the keel when I get there. When I am all done screwing it down, I use a rubber mallet to "set" the bend. I have never snapped a band at the screws doing it this way.

HTH!

 

[Miller]

Hi,

When I put on a new stem band, I start at the deck, and work my way down the stem. At a certain point, you'll have to flip the canoe over, and continue on. I do it one screw at a time. I constantly check the alignment as I go, making sure it will run up on the keel when I get there. When I am all done screwing it down, I use a rubber mallet to "set" the bend. I have never snapped a band at the screws doing it this way.

HTH!

Okay, that was pretty much what I did last time too and it worked for one of the stems but it cracked on the other. Maybe I just have bad luck. I had one of the screws pull out too last time as I bent it. Its given me nightmares thinking of redoing it. Its supposed to go easier based on what everyone else tells me.

One other problem is the stems edges are a bit uneven in one place where the canvas overlaps and leaves a gap in places. So the bend ends up on the high points and not flat on the low spots. Yeah, I know, I tried to avoid it when I canvassed but it ended up where it ended up and now I'm stuck with it.

thanks

 

[Dave Wermuth]

I pre-bend them in my hands and judge it by eye. I use dolfinite or some other good bedding compound. I use tape to hold it in place and I also start at the deck and then flip it over as it gets further along. If it's stubborn you can fill gaps after and paint over.

 

[Rollin Thurlow]

If the screw is pulling out then it means the screw is not screwing into something solid. Either the deck or stem has a bit of rot in it so the wood is not solid or the screw is going into a split or check in the wood. Either way those wood repairs should of been take care of long before this stage!. Longer or bigger screws may help or you can dill a little bit larger hole where the screw is to go, glue in a hard wood plug and then try drilling and reinserting the small screw. Its not a sure thing but it works sometimes!
The fit of the band over the canvas lap again requires the lap be as smooth as possible before the stem band is applied. The face of the canvas lap can be sanded very hard, you can even go over the flat face with a wood rasp to get the worse of the lumps. Of course there is a limit to how much you rasp off but the face of the stem does receive a lot of protection from the stem band so if you wear off a bit of the canvas edge it will not matter.
When I install the stem bands, I arrange the band so the first screw I put in is about 1" below the top of the stem. this is normally easier to do with the boat upside down. I screw the rest of the band along the face of the stem and down the keel, if it has a keel. I then turn the boat over to bend the top two or three inches that lay over the deck. I just use a hammer and a block of soft wood to protect the band. The band will bend to take the bend over the tip of the stem and deck.
Clean off the bedding compound that is squeezed out, line up the screw slots so they are in line with the band, file any screw edges to conform to the curve of the bands and "Viola", your done!

 

[Miller]

If the screw is pulling out then it means the screw is not screwing into something solid. Either the deck or stem has a bit of rot in it so the wood is not solid or the screw is going into a split or check in the wood. Either way those wood repairs should of been take care of long before this stage!. Longer or bigger screws may help or you can dill a little bit larger hole where the screw is to go, glue in a hard wood plug and then try drilling and reinserting the small screw. Its not a sure thing but it works sometimes!
The fit of the band over the canvas lap again requires the lap be as smooth as possible before the stem band is applied. The face of the canvas lap can be sanded very hard, you can even go over the flat face with a wood rasp to get the worse of the lumps. Of course there is a limit to how much you rasp off but the face of the stem does receive a lot of protection from the stem band so if you wear off a bit of the canvas edge it will not matter.
When I install the stem bands, I arrange the band so the first screw I put in is about 1" below the top of the stem. this is normally easier to do with the boat upside down. I screw the rest of the band along the face of the stem and down the keel, if it has a keel. I then turn the boat over to bend the top two or three inches that lay over the deck. I just use a hammer and a block of soft wood to protect the band. The band will bend to take the bend over the tip of the stem and deck.
Clean off the bedding compound that is squeezed out, line up the screw slots so they are in line with the band, file any screw edges to conform to the curve of the bands and "Viola", your done!

Okay thanks for the advise guys. I will try it again. I think the screw pulled out last time (15 years ago) because the edge had a ridge and wasn't flat enough to go into the wood far enough. So If i file/sand the puckered ridge of the filled canvas on the ends a little flatter I will remove the filling in those high spots so will I still be ok (waterproofed) by covering them with bedding compound? In any case Rollin, I'll be ordering another stem band from you. I wonder if anyone has ever tried annealing the brass to make it softer? I've experimented with bending brass rods for another project before that were cracking and breaking when bending. I discovered that although some of the manufacturers calls them 'annealed' they bend a whole lot easier and much less likely to crack if you do it yourself (heat to ~450 and quench). I think there are different qualities of brass too. Let me guess-- I'm the only pea brain cracking brass when I bend it?.... nevermind.

 

[Gil Cramer]

Unless the customer supplies the stem band, I use annealed stem bands. They are undrilled and can be shaped by hand to fit the stem profile. I use a vise to make the sharp bend at the top of the stem. After they are shaped almost to fit, the holes are drilled from the concave backside because it is easier to center them. The countersinks then must be done from the front. They are bedded with bedding compound and screwed into the stems. Because they are soft, I have never had one break. It does take longer then using pre-drilled stem bands. I don't know if the softness is a detriment over a long period of time, but I doubt it.

 

[Rob Stevens]

I discovered that although some of the manufacturers calls them 'annealed' they bend a whole lot easier and much less likely to crack if you do it yourself (heat to ~450 and quench).

Quenching any heated metal HARDENS itl. Annealing is accomplished by heating, then very slowly cooling, for example, but burying the metal in dry sand.

 

[Miller]

Yes, that is true for the ferrous metals but not for the non-ferrous. Or at least that is what a professional metal smith told me and I found on google searches also. There are a number of you tube videos and blogs of people annealing brass rifle cartridges by heating then quenching. They all say that brass is annealed by the opposite process used on ferrous metals. Course I'm no expert on it.

 

[Gil Cramer]

It's been almost 40 years since metallurgy class so I don't remember much about annealing brass- if I ever knew anything. I buy soft stem bands from American Traders. They ship them in a coil to save shipping costs.

 

[Miller]

Hot dang it worked! I got them both on using a little bit from everyone's ideas. I found it much easier to have the brass pre-bent in a vise where it goes over the deck. Then I starting with a screw 1" below the deck & worked my way back while using duct tape to hold it in place. Much easier. I can't thank you all enough. You guys should have a book of pro-tips like this. I sure would buy it.

 

[Larry Meyer]

An item on stem band bending ought to go in the knowledge base pretty soon. This question has been posed many times and I have contributed my mite now and then. One subplot is what happens when your soft brass screw gets chewed up when it hits an invisible tack head?

 

[Miller]

One other thing I did was when I drilled a hole a little too large I took a tiny screw hole size piece of cedar, dipped it in bedding compound first and then inserting it the hole. Then when I put the screw in it held tight and pulled the stem band close. I used bronze screws instead of brass so maybe that would tend to go through a tack head a little easier but I didn't have nay problems with that.

 

[JClearwater]

The way I have always done it was not to per-drill the screw holes in the band with the exception of the first two nearest the deck. I found that the band had a tendency to kink at the screw holes and not bend in a smooth curve. After I install the first two screws I bend the band and drill and installed one screw at a time. I don’t bother to countersink until I get all the screws in. Then I take them out one at a time, countersunk the hole and reinstall the screw, make sure the screw slot is lined up with the axis of the band and file off the excess.

The beauty of wooden outside stems is that you can achieve a perfect joint between the stem and the band. The joint between the canvas lap and the wooden outside stem is also more forgiving than the joint between canvas and brass.

Maybe I’ve been doing it wrong all along but it seems to work.

Jim

 

[Rollin Thurlow]

Just in case anyone is still confused, to soften or "anneal" the brass: the brass needs to be heated so it is just about cherry red, which really is not too far from melting! (If you are a strict metallurgist, there are many different shades of color that will indicate the correct temperature but for the homebuildier just using the cheery red color is a good guide.) It needs to cool slowly. If it is cooled quickly such as with water the brass will be harden and it becomes more brittle instead of less. The hot brass should just be air cooled naturally. Brass is a strange and wonderful metal and it is amazing in all its different characteristics.
I have a nice story of how to anneal 2000 lbs of brass stem band that were manufactured too brittle but its too long for here.
At home, if you want the brass softer, trying to heat up the whole band at one time can be difficult. If you plot out where the screws are to be placed, its much easier to just heat up the one inch area where the screws are to go. You can do that even after the screw holes have been drilled in the band. Of course I don't think I would try this on the boat! It does take a bit more polishing effort to clean up the "burnt" areas on the band but it all polishes up the same.
For almost all the common canoe stems, even the O.T. Otca and Molitor, the common stem bands should not need any more annealing. They will drill, bend and flex just fine.

 

[George F.]

Great advice on installing the stem bands! One question: I have purchased the bands and am ready to install and then I read the back needs to be concave to handle the canvas and bedding compound. Is a concave back on the brass stem band absolutely necessary? I wrote Northwoods Canoe and asked the same question and if they had concave bands, but received no response. Obviously, I would prefer to use the flat backed ones I have to save having to a re-order and return the originals.
Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Rod Tait (Orca Boats)]

Cove back brass band is harder to come by and therefore usually costs more at least in my neck of the woods. Width of cove back is usually 3/8 while flat is 1/2, so it depends on width of inner stem with canvas on as to which band is best. I like to pre-bend mine to fit including the gradual curve. Then I measure out the band in increments and pre-drill all the holes as well, including countersink. On older boats, unless you have a very solid inner stem, the small #4 screws are not going to pull it into alignment. I have a short video of how I do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJX_AbaA1z4

 

[Rollin Thurlow]

Hello George, I'm sorry I missed you email.
The flat back bands are difficult to fit on the canvas lap on the face of the stem.
The concave band is not absolutely needed but it sure makes the job easier and neater. the concave bank covers the lap and goes over the unevenness of the stem face much easier than the flat ones.
Try putting on one of the ones you have and see if you like it and then decide.
Rollin

 

[Paul Scheuer]

Question - Does this conversation imply that the inner surface of the outer stem would fit better if it were concave ? The original outer stems from my Morris are flat. I think that I should keep the original.

 

[Rollin Thurlow]

The base of the outside stem should also be hollowed out, just like it would be for a keel
Outside stems are almost always concave even on the Morris canoes. T he ones that aren't don't fit very well and end up with a lot fillers and bondo to fill in the gaps.